how can I get a star chart of 90 degrees or 3 months in one

[Invité Anonyme]

Please excuse me for not being able to find French translator, but just in case you can speak English (or Spanish) how can one get a starry sky chart of 90 degrees or 90 days time-span. all the software I have checked only includes a month chart. can you help? thanks

[Bleu]

Hi!

 

I'm happy to discover that some Anglophones look for informations in French forums... :wink: Actually, I'm not sure to understand what you need... Why do you want to have a sky chart for 3 months? What sort of chart exactly? Why can't you use the softwares you downloaded to show a map of the sky at the moment you observe?

 

Could you give us just a little more informations? :wink:

 

C ya!

 

P.S : sorry for my mistakes! (et désolé pour les francophones de l'académie! )

[logastro]

starlady, I've the same problem as TeTeC to understand what you need exactly.

 

Pero puedes hablar español tambien si prefieres, lo comprendo aunque no le hable muy bien :wink:

[Bleu]

Du calme l'Espagnol!

 

Webastro, le forum intersite interlinguistique international sur l'astronomie... Trop long? :wink:

 

A+

[Invité Anonyme]

J'ai fait une découverte concernant un diagramme antique de ciel dans un temple égyptien. Le diagramme mensuel de ciel est bon, mais un diagramme de ciel montrant 3 mois dans un diagramme est preuve indéniable. Si vous pouvez m'aider je vous donnerai le crédit. J'aurai besoin de lui pour la publication et le copyright. AstronoMike.net vous êtes le meilleur ! :wink:

[_Lune_]

Pero puedes hablar español tambien si prefieres, lo comprendo aunque no le hable muy bien :wink:

ho si tu hablas muy bien español!!

 

 

 

et mais Starlady tu parles francais, michant je me suis enquiquiner pour tout traduire...arf!!mdrrrrr

[Gaétan]

C'est du français mais j'ai rien compris. :? :shock:

[Bleu]

Google translation I suppose... :wink:

 

Automatic translations aren't really accurate, but you can go on talking English or Spanish, as you see it isn't so difficult for us to understand. :wink:

 

Maybe you could post your last message in English or Spanish if it doesn't matter...

 

C ya!

[Gaétan]

Pour moi aussi, c'est ok. Je comprend toutes les langues du moment qu'on me parle en français.

[Invité Anonyme]

J'emploie des poissons de Babel pour ma traduction. http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn

 

I get the feeling I better continue in English. :roll:

 

Here is the deal. The Denderah zodiac which Napoleon had the good sense to bring it to France...by the way, people are traveling to the Museum only to find NO access to the Denderah Zodiac )

 

Some people theorize that it is a sky chart depicting the sky 10,000 B.C.

Others claim that it depicts astrological signs but not astronomical constellations. There are many other theories which I don't have time to get into here.

 

:idea: The point of the 90 day-90 degree sky chart is to prove that each side represents a spherical quadrant of each of the seasons.

 

Interested? How do I get a customized chart to my specifications for this project

 

my email:

starlady589@yahoo.com

 

 

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[Astrosteph]

I find this site http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterOne/Drawin...cOfDenderah.htm about the "Denderah zodiac", reading "the configuration of the stars 90.000 BC". Howdy

 

About your request, my best star plotting software cannot plot the sky before 4713 BC.

 

By the way, you certainly know that the celestial north pole wasn't pointing to the polaris from the beginning. In the year 4000 BC the celestial north pole was inside the Draco constellation, between the stars Edasich and Thuban. This means also that the constellations you find on the ecliptic (called zodiac) wasn't all the same as we currently see.

 

If you go even further in the past, changes are even drastic... and without being able to precisely indentify some stars on the picture it will be rather difficult to date it even roughly.

 

Greetings.

[Invité Anonyme]

Astrosteph, merci de votre réponse. Je clarifierai ma recherche. D'abord, c'est une image du zodiaque rond au temple de Denderah, Egypte:

http://www.bluehoney.org/Images/Egypt/Dend...erah_Zodiac.jpg

Chaque côté de ce zodiaque est un quart de cercle sphérique comme montré dans le côté gauche de cette image:

.

Chaque côté du zodiaque est séparé par deux la déesse Isis, avec le two-Horus au centre. Ma théorie est que chaque côté représente 90 degrés et 90 jours de chaque saison (été, chute, hiver, printemps) de l'année.

Par exemple, si vous regardez le côté gauche de cette image:

 

et la comparent à l'excursion starry de ciel d'automne de Night's à

vous noterez une allumette étroite entre le ciel de chute et les constellations représentés dans le zodiaque de Denderah.

AstronoMike.net a la latitude et la longitude égyptiennes pour Giza, qui est assez étroit. Cependant, j'ai besoin d'un diagramme de ciel de 3 mois par saison de Denderah pour montrer ma découverte.

 

:idea: Astrosteph, thank you for your reply. I will clarify my research. First, this is an image of the round zodiac at the temple of Denderah, Egypt,

 

http://www.bluehoney.org/Images/Egypt/Dend...erah_Zodiac.jpg.

Each side of this zodiac is a spherical quadrant as shown in the left side of this image: http://www.new-universe.com/pythagoras/GIF...ramid-draw1.GIF. Each side of the zodiac is separated by two Goddess Isis, with two-Horus at the center.

 

My theory is that each side represents 90 degrees and 90 days of each season (summer, fall, winter, spring) of the year.

 

For example, if you look at the left side of this image: http://www.bluehoney.org/Images/Egypt/Dend...erah_Zodiac.jpg and compare it with the Starry Night's Fall Sky Tour at http://www.space.com/images/all_sky_map_0209_02.jpg you will notice a close match between the fall sky and the constellations depicted in the Denderah zodiac. Astronomike.net has the Egyptian latitude and longitude for Giza, which is pretty close. However, I need a sky chart of 3 months per season from Denderah to prove my discovery. Can you help with this project? any suggestions will be appreciated.

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[Astrosteph]

I will be glad to help as best as I can, and I can send you any chart you like form any location on Earth for a date between 4713 BC to 10000 AC.

 

But please take in account the following facts that may help you:

:arrow: The precession of the Equinox (http://www.crystalinks.com/precession.html). So if you look at the nignt sky 10.000 BC, the vernal point is around 168° E from its current position. To be more explicit the spring constellations in 10.000 BC will be like the ones we currently see... middle of fall! The precession is quite constant so we can calculate the drift for any date in the past.

:arrow: Celestial North Pole position

As a consequence of the Earth's axis nutation, not only you have to take in account the precession of the equinox, but also a different position of the celestial north pole. That implies also that the ecliptic was in a different position as it is today, crossing the constellations on rather different points as they are today.

 

From these two facts, trying to find a match between probable star position or constellations in the Denderah picture and today constellations AT THE SAME YEAR DATE (i.e. vernal position, beginning of Spring) is totally useless and can be proven wrong in no time if the drawind was done 10000 BC as suggested, or if a close match is really obvious, the picture cannot be more older than 2000 years.

 

Anyway, do not hesitate to ask for a star plot... I just need the date and time, and geographic position (lat & long), providing you don't go before 4713 BC :wink:

[Invité Anonyme]

Merci Astrotech et chacun de vos efforts. Voici ma proposition pour le diagramme du ciel 3-months à nommé alternatif : Région De Denderah/État : Qina, Egypte Type de coordonnées et d'endroit : Latitude : longitude 26.16917 : 32.65528 (degrés décimaux) Latitude (DMS) : 26° 10' ; Longitude De 9 N (DMS) : 32° 39' ; 19 E (degrés, minutes et secondes) Astrotech, puisque j'ai aimé votre présentation du passage de Venus, nous a laissés commencent par 8 juin 2004 au à 2 septembre 2004. À partir du 8 juin 80 B.C. par 2 septembre 80 B.C. À partir du 8 juin 80 A.D. par 2 septembre 80 A.D. Voyez-vous ce qu'atteins je ? Merci

 

Thanks Astrotech and everyone for your efforts.

Here is my proposal for the 3-months Sky Chart at Alternative Name: Denderah

Area / State: Qina, Egypt

 

Coordinates & Location type:

 

Latitude: 26,16917

Longitude: 32,65528

(Decimal degrees)

 

Latitude (DMS): 26° 10' 9 N

Longitude (DMS): 32° 39' 19 E

(Degrees, minutes and seconds)

 

Astrotech, since I loved your presentation of the Venus transit, let us begin with 8 June 2004 through 2 September 2004.

 

From 8 June 80 B.C. through 2 September 80 B.C.

 

From 8 June 80 A.D. through 2 September 80 A.D.

 

Do you see what I am getting at? Thanks

[Astrosteph]

Here you go: http://home.tiscali.be/alcyone/dossier/Denderah.zip :wink:

[Invité Anonyme]

Astrosteph, merci pour l'information, bien que je ne puisse pas ouvrir le dossier jusqu'à ce que je devienne à la maison. :roll:

 

Je me suis juste rendu compte que j'avais signalé dans la section fausse. Au cas où je continuer la matière dans la section d'astronomie ? les meilleurs souvenirs.

 

Astrosteph, thanks for the information, although I can not open the file until I get home. I just realized that I have been posting in the wrong section. Should I continue the topic in the astronomy section? best regards.

[Bleu]

That doesn't matter Starlady, one of the admin will move it in a few minutes (hours? :wink: )in the right section... :wink:

 

C ya

[Invité Anonyme]

Astrotech, en passant en revue les diagrammes que vous m'avez envoyé http://home.tiscali.be/alcyone/dossier/Denderah.zip, je les ai placés latéraux pour dégrossir pour la comparaison. Denderah juillet 8, 80 B.c. et juillet 8, 80 A.d. Les deux diagrammes de ciel montrent fondamentalement la même position pour les corps célestes. Comment est-ce que c'est possible? La même chose quand vous regardez Denderah septembre 2, 80 B.c. et septembre 2, 80 A.d. Le diagramme de ciel est presque identique. Cependant, en regardant le diagramme de ciel pour Denderah daté du 2 juillet 2004 et 2 septembre 2, 2004, là est des différences noticiable en position des constellations. Sont les dates calculées entre B.c. à A.d. affecté par le manque de zéro entre les deux tranches de temps. De ce que je comprends que l'algèbre n'identifie pas l'année zéro, donc les dates entre AVANT JÉSUS CHRIST et l'cAnnonce pourrait être affectée. En revanche, ajoutant 59 jours consécutifs withing la même année, montre plus de mouvement ou de precession qu'entre AVANT JÉSUS CHRIST à la période d'cAnnonce. Ceci fonctionne très bien pour ma théorie que le zodiaque de Denderah est un almanac perpétuel des quatre saisons de l'année civile.

 

Astrotech, in reviewing the charts that you sent me http://home.tiscali.be/alcyone/dossier/Denderah.zip, I placed them side to side for comparison. Denderah July 8, 80 B.C. and July 8, 80 A.D. Both sky charts show basically the same position for the celestial bodies. How is this possible? The same thing when you view Denderah September 2, 80 B.C. and September 2, 80 A.D. The sky charts are almost identical. However, when viewing the sky charts for Denderah dated 2 July 2004 and 2 September 2, 2004, there is noticiable differences in the position of the constellations. Are the dates calculated between B.C. to A.D. affected by the lack of zero between the two time frames. From what I understand algebra does not recognize year zero, therefore the dates between BC and AD might be affected. By contrast, adding 59 consecutive days withing the same year, shows more movement or precession than between the BC to AD time span. This works fine for my theory that the Denderah Zodiac is a perpetual almanac of the four seasons of the calendar year.

[Astrosteph]

Hi StarLady;

 

What you pinpointed is absolutely normal. Between 80 BC and 80 AD there is only 159 years elapsed. The equinox precession was "only" 2.2° showing aslight diffrence for the same day of the year. From this date to our time (roughly 2000 years) precession was 27.7°, a huge move...

 

Remember: precession only applies for the same date in the year for years in the past to present! The differences between two dates inside the same year (i.e. 06/08/2004 and 09/02/2004) are only due to the movment of the Earth orbiting around the sun! This is the season changes.

 

About Ancient Egypt, I don't think they noticed the precession of the equinox (Babylonians knows a bit about) so currently the picture of Denderah may be a "star chart". Even today, star chart printed gets a mention "Epoch 2000" (or any other number) to tell the user the date where the position applies. Please find here a full star description:

 

SAO 56419

GSC 2345:2322, HIP 15876, PPM 68426, HD 20995, B+33 636

Spectral: A0V

**** Data from Hipparcos Catalog ****

Proper motion (mas/yr): RA = 31.87, Dec = -22.99

Magnitudes Bt: 5.752, Vt: 5.754

Parallax: 6.190 mas, 161.5509 pc

Distance: 526.91 light-years, 33322322.26 astronomical units

Magnitude: 5.78

<span style='color:orange'>RA: 01h 23m 15.667s Dec: +24°12'21.545"[/color]

<span style='color:darkred'>RA: 03h 24m 29.701s Dec: +33°32'09.463" (Epoch 2000)[/color]

Azm: 89°30'12" Alt: +67°17'21"

Rise: 18:43 Transit: 01:40 Set: 08:33

Hour angle: -01h 40m 04.9s Air mass: 1.08

Position error: 1.05 mas

 

This is a "special star", not too far form our sun but having a great proper motion (this star is moving fast see from the Earth) and look how this position has change in only 4 years! OK, most stars are not so fast, just an example to tell you to be very cautious

 

Also, constellations are totally arbitrary figures. Where we see a big bear, someone may see something rather different... Playing this game with kids is fun and instructive. Let them look the starry night and design their own ones. The big bear become "The Hat" or "The Pan" (being straight or upside down), and they find other figures from their imagination (dinosaurs, pirate ships etc...) For Elders in Ancient Egypt, they surely found their own figures, having no link with current figures we use.

 

So my advise will be to see if you can have some stra position relative to other stars, and from then trying to find a match with actual figures, or pinpointing very bright stars, open clusters like Hyades and Pleiades could do the job also.

 

Anyway, I hope you will find what you seek.

 

Cheers.